A Fourth Conversation with Andrew Hewson – on Divinity

Andrew Hewson and I sat down for another conversation, this time emphasizing Divinity.

On YouTube

We clarified the distinction between belief and experience and talked more to the “feminine” or heart side of spiritual unfolding. While we touched on the unfolding of our experiences, Andrew reminded that the point was not the content of experience but the deeper reality. Andrew also brought out a new style of awakening he’s seen that is an excellent sign, not possible unless the purity of the world has risen. As usual, it was a wide-ranging chat with many points arising.

Other conversations:
I first had an online conversation with Andrew and Dorothy Rowe last September with perspectives on awakening.

Shortly after that, Andrew and I had our first conversation, exploring the stages of enlightenment.

Our second conversation in December explored topics and issues around the awakening process, including the bigger picture, issues with a renunciate emphasis, healing, integrating, and talking to the family.

Our third conversation this spring was also wide-ranging, focusing on the refinement of perception, healing, and the unfolding of the layers of Divinity. Naturally, that led to the latest conversation.

I also wrote a post called Conscious Aliveness, touching on a detail from Andrew’s recent Buddha at the Gas Pump interview.
Davidya

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25 Comments

  1. Sanjay Parthasarathy

    Hi David

    Would someone who has realized Brahman accumulate further karma for themselves by their actions. Understand that they may have some prarabdha karma, which is the karma left to exhaust in this lifetime but other than that since Brahman is defined as the great awakening, is it right to understand that this also means liberation from the cycle of life and death and hence, there will be no further karma that accrues to them to be carried over and resolved in future lifetimes.

    1. Hi Sanjay
      The stages of development are somewhat distinct from the healing. While some value of healing is needed to reach higher stages, some manage to carry some entrenched tendencies forward. I suspect part of the issue is the age we’re in doesn’t live up to when some of the texts were written. In higher ages people had less baggage and easier unloading.

      Our mountains of backlog are roasted with the initial awakening, ideally. But I’ve seen some of that carry forward for a bit while the rest of the disentangling happens.

      Next up is embodying it in action and thus stopping creating new karmas. But again, that’s dependent on the healing and takes time. We can have habits and stories that have to become conscious and released. I know someone who died in Brahman but left some injury behind. He was given special instructions for resolving those obligations. He won’t have to come back but did have some cleaning up.

      We remain human so can still be subject to stumbles. But if we’re conscious enough, those can always be resolved.

      And finally, there is the sprouted seeds unfolding in this life we simply live through, as you mention. Ideally, we’ve developed a stable place that’s not entangled so they simple wind down as smoothly as possible.

      It’s all a process and we get cleaner and better in time. I wouldn’t say there are any absolutes here nor expectations of perfection. There are always opportunities for progress.

      Heck – some even come back not to resolve stuff but to help.

        1. Hi Michael!
          While I was losing weight, some resistance arose. It became clear it was resistance to certain constraints, then a fear of loss of freedom that goes waaay back. Gradually peeling it off.

          And yes, all is well here aside from the crazy collective. πŸ™‚

  2. Sanjay Parthasarathy

    Thanks David. The question arose coz:
    1. There it this thing about lesha avidya for someone who is even established in Brahman. As I understand, this is the ignorance that remains even when one has realized Brahman. So maybe, that could still produce actions which are not established in clarity.
    2. The sense of doership is said to fall away even when the initial stage of Self realizaiton or Cosmic Consciousness is established and must be so in Brahman realization as well, which is even beyond Unity. But the question is, does it fall away completely or is there still the sense of doership which could make one still accrue karma. You have also mentioned of awakening happening with any of the three gunas being dominant. If so, then maybe with the tamas and rajas gunas being dominant there could still be karmic entanglements that take place due to one’s actions no matter how high their realization is.

    1. Great question, Sanjay
      Leisha avidya or “remains of ignorance” is working on a different level than karma. This is basically about the necessity to maintain some value of individuality to function in the world, even though we experience ourselves as non-separate. Brahman is more inclusive so it’s more integrated than in Unity.

      Unresolved karma is from incomplete experiences and is more in the field of energy and mind. As that is healed (vasanas, etc) and we embody consciousness more and more, the tendency to be unconscious and cause incomplete experiences is resolved. If that’s not healed, someone in any stage can cause trouble. But it’s operating on a different level.

      The sense of doership does indeed fall away with Self Realization. But again, those vasanas can bring old habits back up that can create karmas. Deeper than the letting go of Self Realization is what I call the core identity in the gut. That’s not usually cleared until later. It’s not about doership but does sustain a sense of identity that can still case trouble.
      https://davidya.ca/2020/07/25/the-child-identity/

      So yes, there is the shift itself, then a lot of catching up to do by the other slower-to-change layers. It’s both instant and a process.

      On the gunas – the dominant guna mainly influences our experience of the world: real, illusion, or lila. But yes, if there are unresolved issues, they will play through that filter. The imbalanced tamasic would be more fundamentalist and extreme, the rajasic more angry and burning.

      It’s very realistic to recognize karmic entanglements are possible as long as we’re in the field of karma. We have to be vigilant. Too often, people have some experience of inner perfection and make the assumption this is also true of their outer layers. We see the world as full of light and bliss. But if we don’t heal, that will be disrupted and troubles can unfold.

      We’re human. We have the opportunity to evolve above the devas but also fall into hell. It’s good to pay attention to where were going. (laughs)

        1. Hi Harriet
          Heaven and hell are not somewhere else but lived here and now. We fall into hell by following the “dark side” so to speak, my amplifying the darker aspects of our experience, like dwelling on our troubles, on fear, depression, and anger.

          If such things arise in our experience, we don’t want to resist them but complete the experience and heal. The issue is in dwelling in them, amplifying them until we create a dark world for ourselves. We’ve all met examples.

  3. Sanjay Parthasarathy

    Apologize David for any misunderstanding on my part. But, is there a need then to be ever vigilant even after being established in Brahman realization and beyond coz one could still possibly create problems for oneself and others and hence, instead of as you say, evolving, one could get mired further in samara. So, when then, if the use of such a term is valid, would be the final libertaion and what would that be.

    1. Hi Sanjay
      Well, it’s not so much about being ever vigilant. More just being aware that you’re still human and being alert to evidence of shadows in play. Relaxed but not taking the inner stuff as some sort of personal accomplishment.

      For example, in losing weight I became more aware of some push-back. I’d noticed it before but it wasn’t conscious enough to trace. It’s gradually become more conscious. It goes back hundreds of years so there’s no overt event in this life to point at. Just behavioral effects. Is whatever it is enough to drive me back into another life? I don’t know yet.

      The ancestral PhD thing would probably have just stayed in the blood line, unresolved, if that hadn’t finished.

      There is a simple looking and feeling into it. Is this response movement in the collective? Here? Historical? It’s not a full time job, just noticing when some behavior or reactivity comes up. That has become less common so it’s more obvious.

      The final liberation is an interesting question. There is clearly further growth after this life. As a human, it seems it would be after karma is done and we’re acting only from nature and Divine flows. I don’t know anyone there yet. For some when sprouted karma completes they’d drop the body. Certainly this would be a liberation from the constraints of a localized form. It would be death in the old sense of the word. But final? A graduation but a journey still unfolding.

      The great sage Tat Walle Baba was shot. He was very aware of this karma and was expecting it, telling his followers in advance. Evidently, a teacher who saw him as competition shot him. Was that teacher acting to complete Baba’s karma or creating new karma? It partly depends on how the other fellow responded to what he did. Even if he was drawn to complete the karma, if he takes it as a burden, then he’s creating new karma. How does he complete that? It gets complex.

  4. Sanjay Parthasarathy

    Thanks David for trying to explain what seems to be a very complex topic indeed. Had a question regarding the core identity in the gut that you mentioned. I could have got it all confused here. But, I know you and other teachers have referred to releasing the identity in the mind, heart and gut. Is releasing the core identity in the gut the same as what is referred to as Sahaja samadhi. I understand that there is a possibility of difference among teachings in the use of these terms to describe various stages. For instance, U. G . Krishnamurti (not to be confused with J. Krishnanurti) was said to be in that state of Sahaja samadhi. He used to say that one cannot do anything wilfully to get into the state. Sometimes, he used to use the expression that one should throw in the towel. It seems that in Sahaja samadhi the body itself is also liberated from the clutches (interference) of the mind and the senses thus liberated would function independently. As such, there seems to be no experiencer to co-ordinate and process the sensory perception. As the demand from life arises to use the mind for some functional purpose (like knowing how to perform a certain task then the mind would automatically come into play and use the functional knowledge previously gained or by instruction from someone to perform the task and then once the task was over the mind would get de-clutched again. The clutching and de-cluching of the mind happened on its own and there was no volition needed). As per his description, the stranglehold of the mind on the body is released in this state. He referred to it as the natural state and I guess, he used the term living organsim to refer to the body operating in such a natural state. He also used to mention something related to the fact that such an organism could not reproduce another one like him due to chemical changes in the body coz nature has no more any use of such an organism. Some women who have attained this kind of enlightenment are reported to have undergone similar changes in the body. Could this state be the functioning as per nature and divine laws that you mention. In present times, I guess, David Spero and some others talk of Sahaja samadhi.

    1. No, Sanjay
      Samadhi is a going beyond or transcending what arises when the mind goes quiet. The gut release is a healing. This creates activity in the body and mind. Samadhi may help facilitate a release but they’re different steps of the process.

      Head, heart, gut are essentially different levels of contraction and identification as we’re built in layers. Self concept, energy drivers, and identity. Look at it as a general idea as it’s only largely relevant when it’s unfolding for you. Hearing about Paris may be interesting but not too important when the train is pulling into Berlin.

      Sounds like a description of Self Realization. I don’t use “samadhi” for that, except perhaps for the shift itself. The end of the sense of doership. Actions continue but now without the ego claiming it was doing it. Many teachers don’t speak to anything further.

      The idea we wouldn’t have children after awakening may be true for him but it’s certainly not universal. It’s part of dharma and required for the species to continue. We would act according to our nature and the need of the time. Many of histories great sages were householders with families. You also have to be careful of old renunciate teachings adding distortion.

  5. Sanjay Parthasarathy

    I am sure that I probably do not understand nor did I provide a holistic view of U. G. Krishnamurti’s teaching. Also, I am not in any position to understand his stage of realization. But, he certainly did not advocate celibacy and used to say that propagation of life was part of nature’s need. It is just that it seems that in his case the body went through some changes which was not anything due to his own volition.

    But, thank you David for elaborating on these topics.

    1. Hi Sanjay
      OK. My comments were in general, not meant for him specifically. Significant body changes are certainly possible. I’ve mentioned my dosha changing twice. Some releases can create large scale rebalancing.

      Also worth noting that we’re rising out of a dark age where anything more than Self Realization was pretty rare until very recently. Many came to equate this with Vedanta when its not. etc.

  6. Sanjay Parthasarathy

    Yes, it seems like there are examples where trying to fix someone’s enlightenment within established norms of what that should be by applying traditional or known models of understanding could lead to misunderstandings.
    Thanks!

    1. Hi Sanjay
      It is useful to have a sense of the process. If someone is talking about their own experience, it may give you an idea of where they’re speaking from. But not everyone uses the words to mean the same thing. And sometimes, they’re talking to a different stage. That doesn’t mean that’s where they are. A talk on Self Realization is just that.

      So a general idea is useful but careful about rating or scoring people in some way. Just general idea, subject to change.

    1. Right – even your own. It’s a dynamic process with parts very clear, others shadowed, and others deeply contracted. Perfection is the direction but should not be the expectation – of others or ourselves. πŸ™‚

  7. Cathie

    Andrew commented that some [who are no longer bound to do so] choose to come back into embodiment to help. That may perhaps be how the notion of “bodhisattvas” came to evolve… It’s possible also, I guess, that what we call “angels” may take on physical embodiment for a particular purpose.

    What may not be recognised is that there are yet others – points of awareness/consciousness, barely individuated – that may also take on a human body. (There may possibly even be multitudes of such beings. There are more humans alive today than there have ever been in the history of the planet, after all.)

    Whether there is choice here or they are “volunteered” by the vast intelligence behind the forces of nature I don’t know although I suspect the latter. (I also wonder whether this process was how homo sapiens was evolved into a physical vehicle capable of housing a more complex, layered consciousness. – I don’t know.)

    It doesn’t make them more “special” than other individuals. They just carry less accumulated baggage, although taking on a physical body almost inevitably necessitates taking on some ancestral karma. For that reason they may be born into lineages that have come full term so to speak, where two particular branches of exploration have become complete, and they may have no siblings or cousins. Or, possibly, they may have multiple siblings, thus spreading the burden of ancestral karma. In either case there will still normally be ancestral karma that has to be burnt up and this may lead to difficult life challenges which can nevertheless also make up for the paucity of earlier life experience.

    In some senses it’s a sort of short cut, fraught with difficulty but also holding much promise.

    Adapting to a physical body can (inevitably does?) represent an extreme challenge in such circumstances. It may take decades to reach an accommodation with the physical body, and/or more than one embodiment before the being becomes fully functional. As small children they can carry memories of their earlier diffuse state. They may be very withdrawn and find physical embodiment a real challenge.

    Such beings may have little attachment to their physical body and because of the acute challenges involved in adapting to physical embodiment there is possibly a higher than normal incidence of self-harm, suicide or death by accident. It may be that what appear like the products of an increasingly dysfunctional society instead represent the early phases of a real sea change in this phase of human experience, a small part of the rising purity of being that Andrew speaks of – but still going through the teething stages. πŸ™‚

    I make this point for the parents of such children. It is not their fault, nor is it always the fruit of ill-spent past lives. It’s just another facet of the gloriously complex and continually evolving creation we participate in.

    1. Hi Cathie
      You’re taking an idea and extrapolating it a little too far.

      There are occasional awake beings who choose to come back and help by taking a body. There are also those who choose to stay on after their karma is complete. They wouldn’t have trouble because they’d be well-integrated.

      Many souls here now have a history as humans. They’re working through their human process (karma, growth, etc). Usually it takes awhile to get another human body. But because of the special time we’re in, more bodies are being made available and more are stepping in. The transition is offering a lot of opportunities for rapid progress so they’re desirable, if a bit challenging.

      Angels and souls incarnating on other planets have their own path thats distinct from humans. For the most part, they stay on their path. However, occasionally a soul will switch paths. They won’t “drop in” for a life but shift entirely, for example, from being an angel to being human. This is a difficult transition but does allow for faster evolution.

      Most souls who have made such a shift did so many lifetimes ago. They’ve adapted to human lives and built human karma. Their history does change their emphasis and learning though.

      Occasionally, you might meet someone on their first human life. How much of a challenge the change will be depends on a lot of factors. Like what kind of karmic challenges did they bring in and how big an ancestral deal they made to get the body.

      Of course, there can always be unique exceptions for the need of the time. But there would be nothing typical of such beings.

      There is always choice here but our higher self is what is managing it. Some souls do take on an optimistic load to maximize progress, forgetting how much they’ll forget.

      Self-harm etc are symptoms of extreme disconnect, not integration. Full enlightenment is inherently a highly integrated state. A bodhisattva would not express this way. But yes, someone can be quite evolved but still have serious issues or extreme karma. Some very enlightened sages come to mind, dying through a last major karma.

      But yes to your closing remarks. πŸ™‚
      I’m reminded of the story of Mulan, a warrior born in a woman’s body in a culture that saw a woman’s role as in the home. And yet she grew to save the kingdom.

  8. Cathie

    I’m sorry I realise I didn’t explain very well. It is highly personal and yes, I have extrapolated from my own experience, in case there were others who needed to hear. There are a very wide range of possibilities and not all fit within the mould. πŸ™‚ But none of this is relevant except to those who have actually experienced it.

    1. Hi Cathie
      Yes, many possibilities. I’ve shared what I’ve seen but I’m sure there are other possibilities too. It is good to have decent context though as we can get mislead, especially due to the effects of personalization. Appearances can be deceiving, but if we understand the principles behind the forms, we’re not mislead by them. πŸ™‚

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