Knowing, Before and After

Knowing, Before and After

This post is a little more exploratory, looking for language.

In a recent Livestream talk, Lorne Hoff made a brief comment I found quite insightful. “The creator of the creator… she doesn’t want to be known.”

For context: in Self Realization and Unity we’re going through a process of Atman (consciousness) unfolding to itself. First this is “internal” then in the world, until all is recognized as mySelf. As consciousness arises as a way for That to know itself, our growth is driven by the nature of our being. Our existence as a conscious being is for this unfolding to take place. The drive to unfold is part of who we are. (that becomes quite clear at some point)

Once the whole of Atman is known – both global self-awareness and at every point within itself, then the opportunity arises for consciousness to look outside of itself, opening the doorway to Brahman.

Brahman is a whole different scenario. In Brahman, the knower of Brahman is Brahman. While we might say Brahman is conscious, it does not have the dynamics of self-aware consciousness like Atman. There is no creation and nothing has ever “happened” from a Brahman perspective so there is no unfolding.

This brings us back around to the opening quote. Because of the nature of Brahman, there is no drive, no desire to be known. Brahman is already totally known. However, a human who has come to  Brahman still has to unfold that knowing in awareness.

The mechanism is simply a deeper surrender into what is here.

It’s also useful to note that the person doing the unfolding is not a “little me”. They would recognize themselves as cosmic, a direct expression of the divine or source. Other historical names related to cosmic are ‘the son of’ or ‘the first born’.

The world, the person, the universe – all different perspectives of one thing – what is here doing the unfolding.

She, the creator of the creator is the divine in Brahman. This isn’t a doing. More a progressive refinement. It is a surrender to surrender itself.

[Update – note that Lorne didn’t go into the statement – it was a passing remark. This post is my take on the recognition that I had from the statement. I’ll be writing another related post shortly.]

Last Updated on June 16, 2016 by

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  1. Jim

    Beautifully said, David. This reminds me of our discussion some months ago around the hypothesis that Brahman ripens in a similar dynamic, as the transcendental states of consciousness do for the Self. This means we would see an unfolding of Brahman first similar to CC, then Brahman similar to GC, and Brahman similar to UC. Like you say, refinement, but no longer fully transcending the prior state (as is necessary with the tc/cc/(gc)/uc progression), because Brahman cannot be considered a transcendental state of consciousness.

    So from that earlier hypothesis, the first experience that comes post-unity, is the Brahman of No Self. Just as the self surrendered when the Self became established, so does the Self in UC now surrender into Brahman. Still evident, as ‘nothing happens’, and yet no longer seen as a Self with an identity, a personal attachment. So the Self has surrendered into Brahman, but the world is not yet fully seen.

    This next phase of refinement then would be something as is experienced in GC, knowledge of the divine, as you are expressing here, discovering the creator of the creator, not as the Self came to know God, but as is revealed by the earlier surrender of the Self into Brahman.

    As for how the full expression of this “GC”- Brahman, or the subsequent “UC” – Brahman manifests, time will tell.:-)

    Thanks for bringing this up.

    1. Hi Jim
      Right – thanks for the reminder. It’s a worthwhile model to explore. I can’t say I have enough data yet to confirm it but the model I work with has BC, Refined BC (GC-Brahman), and Parabrahman. The last I don’t have enough information or experience to even describe.

      But it makes good sense as this is how Atman unfolded so why not Brahman?

      It should be noted though that the style with which it unfolded in consciousness may not be the same style in Brahman. For example, someone can have an unfolding of fullness of the Self with CC but have the no-self style with BC. Or have a no-self phase in both, etc.

  2. zen pig

    Not sure about this. I am just starting to get an itch about this “sea of potential” , and I wonder if this is what is meant by the term, “Brahman” in the Advaita religion. from where I sit in the peanut gallery, it seems that the term, “Only One” is very different from the term, “Not Two”. Not Two, does not mean that we are all One. It means that we are not Two, and we are also Not only One. does that make any sense? hard to explain, and I am only getting a peak of what cannot be explained, so could be completely out of my depth. cheers.

    1. Hi ZP
      Brahman is a tricky word because people use it for everything from a sense of silence, to what I do as that which is beyond consciousness. As consciousness is not something you can figure out with the mind, Brahman is even more so.

      Advaita is not a religion – it’s a philosophy brought out by Shankara. In that approach one = not two. However there are a bunch of modern interpretations that are pretty messed up. On both topics you can’t always compare what X said with Y because they don’t always mean the same thing.

      Recently, I attempted to tell a spiritual teacher that talking about “Other” was not oneness or nonduality. Theres a big difference between an inner sense of completion and actual nonduality.

  3. Jim

    Yes, we no longer identify with any transcendental states of consciousness after BC (tc, cc, gc, and uc). Impossible, though those transcendental states may still be experienced within the context of BC, we just don’t go anywhere this time. No identity shift, just an ever deepening relationship with the creator of the creator.

    Yes, Parabrahman, known more for what has not yet manifested, a complete absence of any boundaries. Far more immediate and intimate with all of life than even now. Perfection of sidhis. However, I am curious to see how the overarching Kali Yuga in Devic time influences all of this (“not that there’s anything wrong with it”).

    Any thoughts on that?

    1. Hi Jim
      Right, a progressive deepening rather than a becoming or change in being/identity as in prior states.

      hmm – well to me there is 3 layers to it. There is the broader cycle of time in Devic years, there is the human scale cycle that puts us in Dwapara (energy age), and then there is the current rising golden age. It would seem that they’re one within the other similar to the dasha cycle.

      That would suggest a golden age but one not as long as a yuga age (just 10k years), and one within the context of kali/dwapara. A lesser sat, so one perhaps not as widely or as fully enjoyed. But sat nonetheless.

      We’ll see what becomes.

  4. michael

    Hi David!

    A few months back i stumbled over a website about the yugas (cannot remember its name) and it said that kali yuga ended around 1690 (and that the info that we are still in kaliy yuga is wrong). then followed by 300 “in between years” and then comes the new yuga full online. This should last til around 3900, then one till somewhere in the 5000s and then the golden age.
    Is this correct (or wrong)? Could you say something about it?

    Your posts are deeply nourishing 🙂

    1. Hi Michael
      According to the commonly used standard, we’re only a short ways into a rather long dark age. Yogananda’s master Sri Yukteswar observed that theres an error in that calculation though. If you look at the wikipedia article on Hindu time, you’ll see theres a devic multiplier. It’s converting into a non-human time scale.

      From that we can recognize there is celestial time cycles and human time cycles, one within the other. (I wrote about nested time) I find it far more useful to use the second. On the Books tab, I link to a book on the yugas They chart Yukteswars calculation to historical events, the current time, etc. This also corresponds to my experience and some things like the Ramayana and Mahabharata. The linked Yugas article also talks about some of the timings. (sorry, I’m on a tablet this weekend so it’s not as straightforward to add links)

      It sounds like your book is using something like Yukteswars idea but is using the wrong start point.

      There is also a third layer which doesn’t fit into this cycle – which is the current rising awakening. People talk about 2012, Age of Aquarius and the Mayan calendar but none of those accurately chart this. For example the zodiac Age of Aquarius is still well over 100 years away. Not to mention western astrology not aligning with the actual sky.

      But then what natural cycles have you seen that are a uniform sine wave? I don’t have a specific explanation for the current time, but it has been predicted and is clearly happening.

  5. Jim

    Interesting about the golden age of 10K, as it will carry us straight into the middle of Sat Yuga, sort of a turbo boost from now on. You’ve mentioned before humanity’s precipitous fall into darkness, and now perhaps the rise will be equally noticeable.

    1. Hi Jim
      Yes, it was the last thing Krishna said before he dropped the physical. A 10k age in 5k years. Of course, it’s been taking some time to transition.

      And yes. I can remember the last fall out of Treta – it was a much less gradual drop and somewhat of a shock to many. Kind of like everyone shifting to a more difficult dahsa at the same time. In fact, many people have carried that trauma since, casting a shadow over many lifetimes. Makes more sense if we think of this happening within a celestial dark age.

      And yes, it’s the experience that the current time has now risen above that period so people are now able to clear that trauma and end that long shadow. And that the rise is relatively rapid.

      On retreat this weekend and yet another woke yesterday. Amazing times, seeing it unfold before our eyes.

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