Andrew: Peace and love everyone. I’m here with David “Davidya” Buckland, following up on our last chat that we had on the levels of enlightenment. David is the author of Our Natural Potential and someone that I consider an expert in the field of the phases of enlightenment and the progressive unfoldment of the reality of our pure Divinity.
So we’re here today to chat a little bit more about that and go into some subjects that we didn’t exactly get the chance to touch on last time.
So I just want to thank you, David, for taking the time to talk with me again.
David: Thank you, Andrew.
A: So I had a few things that I wanted to go over just to begin with, and that’s when we talk about levels of enlightenment, we talk about stages in this process of realization. Sometimes in certain circles it can be seen as something that’s non-existent, that there are no stages, there are no shifts, there’s nothing going on. And in certain cases that’s the way that it’s approached.
And when we look at, when we zoom out and actually look at what’s being described both in your work and the work that’s being put forth here and in many others, that can actually be noted as a particular stage where if there isn’t the knowledge that there is a progressive unfoldment or there are different qualitative shifts in our recognition of reality, that stage can be mistaken to be absolute. And it’s something that’s very easily and naturally fallen into. It’s not a position that’s being taken necessarily, but something that just seems to be the case irrespective of whatever else is being said. So I think it’s important to acknowledge the fact that every level or every recognition of reality does seem to be absolute in its nature because it is a subjective presentation of the absolute.
D: I agree, yes, and there are things, for example, like the Brahman shift when you experience going beyond consciousness can sound ridiculous to someone in an advanced Unity stage where they are all of consciousness and consciousness is infinite, it’s eternal, it’s absolute, it’s a ridiculous idea that there would be something beyond that. And it can certainly be, you can certainly see how some of the old texts that describe advanced stages can be interpreted in the context of and applied to an initial awakening, Self-Realization.
I’ve also seen, for example, some of the people in the Papaji lineage, they don’t talk about about stages because they feel it’ll create concepts. From what I understand, they recognize there’s stages, but they don’t talk about them to avoid people getting caught in some more mind stuff. And they assume essentially the availability of a teacher to support the person through the process when it actually shows up.
And then you have, it’s kind of like a scale, on the one hand people don’t talk about it, and then there’s people like Adyashanti talk about head, heart, gut, for example, they talk about a process or more recently he’s been talking about no-self, Unity, and no-Self again as a way of talking about Brahman because Zen doesn’t have terminology like that in there. And so he’s talking about stages but he frames it in a kind of broader, more general way.
He goes into specifics of experience in some cases and then there’s kind of like people like me who go into all these little details and the variations and kind of like trying to establish some models and parameters to cover the broader territory and how it shows up in a number of different people.
A: Sure, it’s just a point of reference and I can just speak from what unfolded here that it was extremely helpful and conducive to continued development to know that just because there is this recognition that I am the infinite reality that that’s not the end of the road.
That from a certain perspective that’s just the beginning, that us recognizing our reality to be infinite is just the beginning.
D: Yes and if you get a strong concept in there that says this is the ultimate, this is the absolute, then there can be resistance to anything more unfolding. So there can be openings, but then a sense of closing that off because it can feel… a few people I’ve talked to, for example, have felt like they were losing their enlightenment, but actually what was happening was they were opening up to another stage, but they didn’t understand that because that wasn’t part of their picture or they had dismissed my comments. In one case, there was somebody who argued against me for a couple of years and then came back around again and said, “Oh, I apologize. You’re right. There’s more.”
A: Sure. Beautiful. Yeah, that’s sort of what I was referring to when I began speaking in that, in a space that’s more masculine in its nature, referring to the masculinity of Divinity, there’s a heavier emphasis on negation, on a sort of detached, silent, changelessness.
And so the idea of there being these shifts that are often spoken about with flows of compassion and love, radiance, things like this, seem to be not a possibility from a heavily masculine condition.
D: Or that they are irrelevant or distracting in some way.
A: Sure, yes. Even something that’s undesirable.
And when I said that nothing’s going on, I was sort of, not mocking, but there was a little parody on the condition which I call void or we could call a very deep Brahman phase where nothingness, supreme nothingness is the, is the reality.
And I’ve seen it happen where one can move into that stage very quickly and not really even have a recognition of anything preceding it and it feeling like that’s the primary shift or that’s the only shift.
D: Yeah, and also I’ve seen people move through the Self-Realization, Unity, Brahman process really quickly and not have that more feminine side and the opening the heart in there and then there’s a process of having to catch up to that, but it can mean that the Brahman shift itself is quite flat and it’s harder for that to open up.
One of my teachers was just recently speaking about that and how it’s important not to rush through Unity too fast. You want to get a chance for… because there’s those initial shifts, like waking up for example, it just happens in a snap, in a split second. But all those layers of expression we have from consciousness up to the surface, they reach progressively more dense, I guess you could say, more progressively more inertial. And so it takes time for them to catch up to those major shifts. You know, usually it takes the mind a little bit of time and a few days or so on, but the body can take quite a bit longer.
And there’s all the kind of internal adjustments and so on that can take place.
A: Yes, beautiful. One thing that I’ve noticed is as well is that with each shift there’s a surfacing of certain material which was not recognized or was unconscious in the recognition of reality preceding the shift. Yes. And so a a prerequisite on some level, whether it’s known or not, is a willingness to face and resolve that material.
It doesn’t have to be a conscious thing that we make a declaration about, but it’s more of just an absolute willingness for the unfoldment to be what it is and to be with it in a way that is receiving and allowing of whatever is arising.
D: Yes, although I have noticed, I had this idea that there were certain kinds of contractions or resistance that were released with certain stages and I think in an ideal way that that does take place. Like I mentioned earlier, Adyashanti talking about head, heart, gut, it’s kind of like these three types of or styles of the contraction that can go with the first three stages and…
But I’ve since seen a number of people who didn’t, you know, again, they went further more quickly without the feminine side, without the refinement and heart opening, and so that stuff didn’t catch up so much and so there has to be some adjustment later.
A: Beautiful point, yes. I was speaking more from the model here where I describe it as either being a masculine condition or feminine condition. So the condition is either more of a masculine dominance or it’s more of a feminine dominance. So unlike in your book where you describe both sides in each phase or you look at a side as being a phase and then the other side as being the refined value of that phase of development, I just break it down as a contextual modality which is basically just a condition of conscious awareness where it recognizes itself to be an infinite contextual field.
This contextual condition, or these contextual conditions, either are primarily feminine or primarily masculine. So there’s a dominance at play.
And there’s also a balancing out or a marriage, if you will, taking place in the process. And so if there is this heavy emphasis on the masculine side of things, whether we call it masculine or not or we even know that that’s what it is or that’s a way of contextualizing it. If there is this heavy emphasis on that side of things, there is going to be that leaning towards negation and a lot of the servicing and resolution isn’t really going to be, there’s not going to be the capacity to really be with it. Because the idea of being with material that was accumulated through us taking ourself to be this little tiny person is irrelevant. You know, it’s all nonsense anyway. Yeah, just whatever. And so I’ve seen that side of things too, what you’re talking about, where it just moves very quickly in that masculine way and there isn’t that, the cultivation of the fullness and the…
D: Right, and the problem that can create then is you’ve got this old stuff from the person still there, and then the person then starts teaching or having a more powerful influence because of the depth of their, that they’re operating from. And, but then these shadows are coming up and they’re not seeing them because they think that’s all gone and done with. And that’s where you get in trouble.
A: Yes, very, very nice point. And also what can take place is that the teaching can reflect this tendency to try to negate or just brush off stuff. And so you’re actually teaching that to those that are earnestly seeking truth. And a lot of times in the spiritual marketplace there are those that are actually in a mode of escapism. They’re trying to somehow overcome something. And so there is this very subtle transaction that’s taking place sometimes in these more masculine conditions where they’re teaching, so-called teaching, this sort of nothing’s going on, there’s nobody, nowhere, over and over and over again, this kind of thing, if you want to call that teaching. And then there are those that are drawn to that by virtue of their own material that there’s a tendency to try to get away from. And so there’s actually a very dangerous dynamic taking place there. Not dangerous in a dramatic way, but dangerous in the sense that it’s not in the highest evolutionary order.
D: Yes, I agree, and it can lead to issues that we talked about earlier, but also if you want to have full enlightenment, you’ve got to deal with that stuff because it’s going to be a shadow on that aspect that can support the higher stages. I mean you can’t really go beyond basic Brahman unless you’ve got some of that other stuff developed. The whole thing of pure Divinity and Parabrahman, those kind of things that I touch on in the book require that to be present. Otherwise there just isn’t the capacity to even be aware that it’s there.
A: That’s exactly right. I oftentimes liken this onto a dimmer switch being turned up in reference to, as the light becomes brighter, as the light of pure Divinity, the radiance, the brilliance of pure Divinity starts to really shine forth, that it shines deeper into the darkness of that unconscious material and actually allows for this stuff that perhaps we couldn’t see at an earlier phase of development to be seen in its fullness.
And it correlates with the capacity, I feel that it correlates with the capacity to intelligently resolve it.
There’s a multiplicity of factors that go into that, willingness being one, intention being another. And as there is that flow of just total offering in Divinity to itself, and that flow of just pure surrender and devotion to itself, then with that there is a receiving of all of this material that needs healing, that needs attention, in a way which is in alignment with the recognition of our reality. So at a certain level of power, at a certain level of brightness, there is the capacity to see this, to see it in a way that isn’t going to trigger some sort of a shutdown system or whatever the case may be, and to really give it the attention that it needs from the space of our reality being recognized to be what it is.
D: Right, and to learn some skills too because so much of our culture is about repression and dismissive of some of this kind of content so it’s really important to learn new ways of being with it and techniques for it. There’s a big difference for example with innocently experiencing the baggage we have, because a lot of it is about completing the experience.
Essentially, we’ve had some trauma or difficult experience in some way, and the experience has been partially had, but it hasn’t been quite completed. So there’s kind of all these residues of old experiences. So all we have to do is be able to sit with it and allow the experience, and then it kind of washes over us and completes. Of course some stuff is a little more complex than that, but it’s a very different experience than trying to repress it.
Yeah, one of the analogies that, you know, stepping back there slightly too, that comes to mind, it’s a little bit like, zooming through on the masculine side, it’s a little bit like you can get to know consciousness but in a way that’s like empty, dark, flat, you know.
And it’s like, you know, you move into a new house, beautiful new house, but there’s no lights. And so you gotta kind of go around and feel and you figure out kind of where the steps are and where the kitchen is and you can use the house.
But with that clearing, you know, the shadow, which covers the light, basically, you start to be able to actually see something
and discover that there’s a light switch and you can actually move through the house without kind of having to behave like a blind person.
It’s a huge difference, ’cause that light, the light of consciousness, it comes from Divinity. So it’s key to really get to know. And then you can see all the detail and the beauty and there’s so much more, it fills it out so much more with that side of the equation.
On the other hand, you know, if there’s too much of that, you get lots of fancy, subtle experiences and all the, you know, light beings and all this kind of stuff, without the grounding in consciousness, without the masculine grounding, then it’s kind of like you’re tossed around all the time by your experiences. It’s hard to just kind of be here in your day-to-day life.
So again, it’s about balance.
A: Yes, yeah, it is about that. And I guess in the way that things unfolded here, it was the masculine side of things allowed for that, you know, that radical stability, so that there could be the depth of the truth of the Self and beyond could really start to reveal itself.
And the recognition of the entirety of the presentation of creation could come to be cognized in a way that wasn’t just seeing it as some sort of appearance in a dismissive way, but recognizing the actual intelligence that is underneath the appearance and the way in which our Self is appearing as all of this.
D: Yes, I witnessed for quite a few years before I finally woke up and so there was kind of that detachment, being the detached observer to some degree, while there also was still an identified ego in play. So it’s kind of like an inner duality and that did allow a lot of unfolding in terms of perceptions about what you were talking about which helped moderate that detachment.
But because there was still a lot of stuff in the more surface levels, in emotions and mind and so on, that had to be cleaned, I ended up sort of becoming aware of the subtle levels of structure of creation and so on before I became aware of the mechanics of how that expressed forward into the world more completely because that’s where I had, still had all the shadows going on and so it kind of did a little bit backwards, so you can kind of get this idea that you kind of work your way more and more subtle than, that kind of stuff, and I guess it can happen that way for some people but it tends more to be you know here and there where you’re more clear and as other things get clear it kind of fills in and the gaps are filled and so on.
A: Yeah, another thing that I see is that the feminine directly correlates with this dynamic expression in the world so that it’s, you know, in a heavily masculine condition, it’s really, it can be really challenging or difficult to even have a conversation or to be present at a dinner with your family or whatever, because there’s no one there.
There’s nothing, I mean, you just kind of these talking heads, you know, and there’s, And you’re the only one there.
And so by grace, the flow of this compassion and the understanding of the intelligence that is shining forth from our reality allows for there to be a different level of relation in the context of family dynamics, in the context of just general experiencing in human life.
D: I agree and also coming back to the healing aspect, if we’re not able to… love and compassion towards who we are, is very profoundly healing. But we do have to come to some value of self-acceptance in that process first before we can get to there.
So it’s kind of a… but if we’re dismissive of it, then that doesn’t help us at all, really. It’s just, you know…
I mean, if you want to be a monk and live in a mountain somewhere, that’s fine, but to be in the world, you need to be in the world. It’s really that simple. And so why not enjoy it? you know, why, you know, and this idea that somehow if we’re in this detached place, that’s superior in some way. I mean, it is a natural phase. Some people do go through a detached period, and that’s fine.
But you know, the stage after that, or depending on how it unfolds, but you know, soon after that, you become everything.
So it’s not that you’re detached from anything. Whatever you put your attention on, you recognize that, “Oh, I am that too.
And I’m that, and I’m that. All this is that.” That’s part of the process too.
So there can be these extremes, I guess you could say, of reality in that process.
A: Yes, I suppose that’s what I was getting at earlier when I was talking about that changeless, this rock-like masculinity of our reality, in a way almost creating some sort of a room or space so that there can be this fullness that comes into that space which it couldn’t have really shown forth unless there was that level of detachment, unless there was that level of sort of moving beyond the surface level dynamics and the very sort of personal, in the egoic sense, ways of interpreting and relating experience. So by that sort of being cut asunder or there being a very natural transcendence of that, withdrawal but not in a renunciate way, then that sort of creates a space so that the feminine side of things can come in and fill that with the actual purity and truth of what’s taking place there in the absence of that surface level material.
D: Yes, I mean if you look at the dynamics of conscience itself, I’m getting kind of abstract here, but fundamentally
Consciousness has these kind of three qualities. That’s not quite the right word because it’s not an expressed thing, but essentially consciousness is made up of these three values of alertness, liveliness, and intelligence. And the alertness stirs, I mean rather the liveliness stirs the alertness to become conscious, and then consciousness flows within itself, curves back on itself, and become self-aware. So there’s this observer quality, the Shiva, the masculine value, that’s where alertness is dominant and it has a detached, just alert, it’s just aware. And then you have the other side of it, which is kind of what the object of awareness over here, that has the quality of liveliness more, which is, you know, of becoming, of turning into form, experiences, and so on and then the interaction between them with the intelligence.
So typically we first become aware of the alertness side, the consciousness and our consciousness by itself there, then we become more aware of the liveliness aspect where it’s dominant. But then there’s that dynamic in between and of course, you know, I’m gesturing here with awareness becoming aware of itself, it inherently creates a space by recognizing itself. It creates a subtle form of space into which all these dynamics can unfold. And so that intelligence quality, which is dominantly the Divine, has those feminine qualities to it. And it’s kind of the most subtle in certain ways. It tends to be the last we become aware of and yet it’s where all the richness and it’s like the power of creation and qualities like love and bliss and the flows that give rise to all our experiences, all that comes into play between those two things.
I mean that’s kind of a mechanical way to look at it. But it, but those, and the quality of time actually comes out of the relationship as well. Space comes out of the self-aware dynamics and then time comes out of that process. And as we shift through the various experiences in consciousness, we shift our relationship with the space and with time. So we can experience time and space in a number of different ways.
Anyways, blah blah blah, but that kind of is the background to what you were talking about, why it works that way.
A: Sure, yeah, and it’s about a balance, just like you said, and I often refer to this poetic way of looking at it as a sacred marriage that’s taking place, and this apparent distinction this primary distinction of the masculine and the feminine and what I consider pure awareness and conscious presence that are never actually separate, they’re never actually two, but there is a distinction, a distinction that’s present. And so there’s a reconciliation, I feel, taking place within this process of this distinction so that it’s not an either/or situation, so that there’s just this a oneness of the both sides of things.
D: Right. But there tends to be this process of first we become established in that observer quality and then we become more, we recognize that this side is consciousness too. Everything we’re looking at around us is also consciousness in expression and then we become aware of the dynamics in between.
And so there’s, and that, when we become aware of the dynamics, that’s what really brings it all together. I mean even in the Unity stage, when we recognize that this and this are the same thing, they’re both consciousness, they kind of, it’s almost like they disappear and leaving only that, the relationship dynamics there. Assuming that there is refinement going on and there is, we’re clearing some of those shadows, to allow that to unfold.
A: Beautiful, yes. So let’s talk a little bit more about just daily life and perhaps in the context of daily life if when this unfoldment is taking place perhaps some of the more effective and efficient ways to be with the process while simultaneously being with the flow of experiencing in the context of daily life and allow for a smooth transition.
Yes. If it’s possible.
D: Well sometimes for people it’s very smooth and sometimes for people it kind of changes everything. You know people can be in for example in a job role for example that that’s completely out of their dharma and, but it was necessary for karmic reasons or whatever and then that gets resolved with the awakening and all kinds of outside things start changing.
But on other hands some people can wake up and everything continues as before essentially in the outside world but who they are in relationship to that changes, and then over time there’s a whole series of things just from going out there and living life, just things come up and you realize, “Oh, I’m not the same with that anymore,” or “Oh, that story isn’t really true. I can let that go.” And so there’s a whole process of, yeah, well, letting go is one of the things.
It’s amazing when you become established in the shift too, because there’s all this stuff we’ve been carrying around the concepts of self, concepts of how we’re supposed to be, all these shoulds and musts and have-tos and whatever, all this kind of like blah, blah, blah, blah, and in emotional kind of grasping and all these kinds of things that we can become conscious of some of that, certainly beforehand, but it tends to become a lot more conscious afterwards and because we’re taking that bigger step back.
And then there’s this whole process of like, oh, okay, I don’t believe that anymore, or, oh, I’m a little entangled here. We can become more conscious of those places where we’re contracting and where we’re kind of, or, you know, (laughs) different kinds of, the way we kind of respond habitually to certain kinds of things.
And when we’re more conscious of it, then we’re starting to be able to make choices. The Bhagavad Gita talks about it in a way where, at first we become aware, “Oh, I’ve done it again.” You know, after the fact, we realize, “Oh, I’ve just done that all over again.”
And then we start to see it during. So we’re in the middle of blowing up at our partner or whatever, and we’re like, “Oh, I don’t need to do that anymore.” And we can let it go in the middle. And sometimes we can stop it then and sometimes it kind of has to play itself out. But there’s still, it starts to change.
And then at a certain point, we see it just as the impulse arises. They’re just like, the impulse to react, and then it’s like, now we have a choice to not react.
And even to go deeper, and go into the seed of that reactivity, and find out what the trigger is. It’s straightforward and sometimes there’s kind of some layers to it. There’s a layer and another layer, kind of going back. But then we have the chance to heal that energetically and then it won’t come up again.
A: Beautiful, yes. I feel it’s important to understand the process of surfacing. So surfacing I feel is a universal process and it has two directions, two primary directions. One is it’s either unconscious and the surfacing has to do with further identification and condensation of energy or it is in the midst of evaporation and transcendence.
D: So those are how we’re responding to it?
A: Yes, basically talking about how the materials arising and it’s either being utilized in egoic dominance for further identification and further condensation of the energy which has a sort of self-perpetuating nature to it.
D: And that’s essentially the wheel of karma.
A: Yes, the wheel of karma, samsara, yes. Or it’s moving in the direction of evaporation and transcendence. And some of the scriptures talk about this in reference to Mahamaya and the energy of maya and how there’s two different directions of vidya and avidya, I believe, yes?
And there’s some comparisons there, but I haven’t really gotten too into it. But if we understand this process and actually have a name for it, surfacing is what it is.
And during the awakening process or during these shifts in our recognition of our reality, surfacing is taking place. Surfacing of material which is seeking resolution, it’s seeking healing. And it’s karmic material.
Sometimes it’s going to come out in expression like you said, sometimes something’s going to be said or there’s going to be this, the body is going to express behaviorally a certain thing.
But when we are living from that reality, there’s a certain level of accountability that’s automatic. So no longer is it something that is just like, you know, there’s an accountability to the recognition of our Divinity.
And so there’s, you know, the necessary reparations if there is such a movement in place, are made according to the context.
And there’s also a very attentive allowing of whatever is being seen in the immediacy in such a way that it’s being intelligently resolved. So this is what I consider evaporation.
So this energy, it’s a primary energy, which I consider an energetic condensation, which we could draw on comparisons from unresolved experiences, traumas, different things, but also just even more subtly or abstract in that, these energy fields that are associated with egoic dominance.
So there are condensated pockets of energy that are associated with collective egoic dominance. And they have a self-perpetuating nature or mechanism. I see them as reflecting in the emotional body and then reflecting in the mental body. And then we would see that reflecting in the behavioral sphere or the field of activity.
D: So just to get a little context of it. So essentially what’s happening is you’re going through your life, day to day life, and then some event happens.
A: Yes.
D: So what happens next? Do you react to that event and is it just this kind of like this drama process that takes place or are you saying like, oh, what’s the source of that?
And you’re seeing how you’re responding to it inside and just reflecting on that. And that can happen long before awakening.
But what awakening does is it gives you this space to, when you’re kind of sitting there observing that you’re able to just kind of see it for what it is much more easily. So it makes the process much easier, but it’s still very possible beforehand.
So essentially what we’re talking about is how we’re responding to stuff comes up in our lives.
Is it neutral? It’s like, “Oh, that guy’s not a very good driver,” you know, and it’s like, “Oh, well.” Or is it like, “Ahh!” And we throw a fit over some little thing.
A: That’s right. That’s right, yes. I suppose what I feel is important is the understanding that it’s something that is in place. It’s not something that needs to be avoided. It’s something that is a great gift. It’s a blessing. It’s an opportunity.
D: And that there’s choice in there.
A: There’s choice.
D: But if it’s all unconscious, then there isn’t a choice.
We’re just kind of reacting to a life and blah blah blah and it’s if that that process of ego control just keeps circling it.
But as we engage in spiritual practices and so on we become more conscious and more aware of these dynamics. Then their choice comes up and and then we have that choice to, as how we respond to events that happen.
A: Yeah. Yes, and I’ve seen those that aren’t, that there isn’t a full complete shift yet. But there you know, there’s a recognition of the field value and and it’s, but it hasn’t realized that it is itself yet.
But understanding that surfacing is is in place now in the context of daily life when all of these emotions are coming up.
When you know these thoughts are reflecting out of that emotional vibration and there are certain things being said or there’s different activity arising, there’s a recognition that this is surfacing, that this field is bringing to the surface within itself that which needs to be healed and that which, when it is attentively tended to, allows for a greater transcendence and evaporation.
So no longer is it seen to be a personal process necessarily, it’s recognized to be a universal process. And I feel that that’s very helpful because it kind of gives us a little space, even if we’re not, you know, we don’t recognize ourself as awareness or anything like that. That even in the context of just seeing that this is a process within the experiencing of this domain, allows for it to be approached in a way that otherwise would be inoperative because we feel like it’s happening to me and it’s mine.
And that may very well be a part of the surfacing, you know, those sort of clenching down and all, you know, all of that kind of stuff, but something is able to recognize it, able to reflect and to see what was taking place.
D: Agreed. So now, it’s just a matter of, it’s such a key, it doesn’t sound like perhaps real practical or whatever, but it’s such a profound part of learning the difference and shifting that habit of reacting and resisting and controlling and that, because those habits are not just, they’re all through those levels, the way we react emotionally, the way we react, you know, mentally and to certain kinds of people and all these different things, and just becoming more conscious of those and shifting them. And what happens over time is not only is there much greater clarity, but life itself gets so much simpler. There isn’t all this drama and all this stuff going on, it just it gets clean and simple and much smoother.
A: Beautiful, yes.
D: We’re also able to get intuitive signals better then to, and to recognize right action, right choice in the circumstance, where It’s just like, there’s a because there’s subtle impulses of you know that, we talked about flows earlier There’s these other subtle flows moving through life and they show up as events, they show up as forms and phenomena and various kinds of things in our life and If we’re getting a little clearer this They come with intelligence so that that signal is there and so we can start to pick up that signal and it’s like you know, we’re about to make a decision or Go in a certain direction. It’s like we get the signals like oh over here, look over there or oh I should turn here when I’m driving. You know, it’s it’s just some these kind of Signals come through and it opens our life up to all kinds of
opportunities and ease.
And ,things that we would never would have personally, You know, occurred to us to, you know to do. I need to do this or whatever or it’s something nothing we could have planned or anything like that. It’s just like these opportunities that are coming up all the time, that we’re able to kind of step into.
And, you know, I mean, that’s kind of how I got my grad degree. It just, it wasn’t kind of my plan or anything like that. It’s just like, there was a signal to do this certain thing. It was like, what? And I go in that direction and it all just kind of like, click, click, click, and suddenly I’m in grad school.
A: Beautiful. Yes, it correlates with this clearing and resolution of karma. And that can take place prior to its behavioral expression. Like, you know, these karmic levels that are coming up, they can come up in a raw, energetic way and can be healed prior to them actually having to be experienced in that way.
And it’s not always going to be like that, but it is very much a possibility. And as this energy is being released and resolved and transmuted, then the natural flow of divine intelligence starts to reveal itself in a way which was being cloaked in all of this obscuration through our taking ourself to be something so limited and finite.
And as we’re talking about this, it’s important to note that none of this is in the realm of personal doership, ownership, or authorship. Even if there does still seem to be a sense of a participant, or a sense of us being the participant, that’s fine.
But as we’re moving through these higher stages, this is very much within the realm of the spontaneous flow of divine intelligence.
D: Right.
A: And so this body becomes a reflective vehicle for the divine.
The functioning of this body reflects the pure divinity that we are.
D: Right.
A: And that’s the clarity.
D: Yeah, and this is important too, because you can get this idea that we have to constantly be checking.
It’s like, oh, am I reacting? (mumbles)
(laughs)
It’s not about, you know, ’cause that’s just another way of ego control and trying to manage it or manage the process.
What we’re talking about is just, in your daily living in life, you’re going along and then suddenly there’s a reaction and it’s like, okay, so what’s there?
Or you’re kind of sitting, reading a book and you notice there’s a real contraction somewhere and you think, oh, I can put my attention on that. Just kind of here and there. It’s not an all constant thing.
A: Right, yes. Experiences, if you have to look then something’s wrong.
D: Kind of ripening this kind of, they come up at a time when it’s [the right] time and that’s when Events arise and so yeah… you don’t want to get into any more control dynamics
A: Yes. And I and I feel that that you know, from a certain phase of development at least that would be recognized as well because that’s When when there is this sense of you know acting from a limited space of autonomy.
That’s condensating in its nature. And so rather than resolution and evaporation and transcendence taking place. There’s further condensation. There’s further contraction taking place. So when we move into the realm of allowing and receiving, which is not something that we do, but something that more or less that’s witnessed, then all of this material now becomes fuel for the fire of enlightenment.
No longer is it in this cyclical sort of self-perpetuating process, but it’s being utilized by the intelligence and that apparent density that was present when it is being brought up into the light of our attention in a space of recognizing our reality to be infinite and it’s being allowed and healed in that way now becomes this enlivened, awakened flow of presence and flow of intelligence.
And so it’s a conversion into bliss essentially I consider it. I always talk about that, like, that which appears to be the most awful thing in the experience, you know, is actually just a huge lump of coal that is the best for the fire of bliss.
I mean, when it’s put in there, it just, you know, blazes forth and, but it’s not exactly always comfortable going through those lumps of coal. We have to be willing to go through all of that material. And it’s not this kind of constant thing.
I find that there’s great waves of just pure radiance and bliss and absolute, just nothing coming up.
And then there’ll be times where it’s a little bit more turbulent. And the turbulent times are not worse than the other times because they’re arising in the context of the reality of our own Divinity.
So I wanted to touch on one more thing about family or a couple more things.
If we’re in a situation where our family members are not privy to this type of understanding, don’t necessarily know anything about enlightenment, you know, awakening or whatever the case may be. More and more on the planet we’re going to see this unfolding in these types of settings where perhaps this is this is taking place for an individual or an apparent individual and it’s those around them do not necessarily know what’s going on.
So there’s a way of being with that that is effective and efficient and that is compassionate. And I feel it’s so important to talk about this at least just a little bit. In my own experience I’ve seen that there is a balance being found with the commitment to truth but But that being in total alignment with compassion and love.
And not ever, but at the same time, not yielding to residual programs or tendencies surrounding family dynamics, which are kind of being brought forth through guilt or different emotional reflections that are arising.
So there is a way to appropriately address an apparent situation that presents itself and for us to speak with those around us that love us and for us to tell them that There’s a profound transformation taking place and the one that you love isn’t necessarily leaving but is just in the midst of this, of a very beautiful, graced unfoldment.
Because I’ve seen in my own experience that it can be perceived that since we’re no longer taking ourselves to be this person, that our family members feel like their family member isn’t there anymore.
Because it’s not in the same way that it was. And if it’s in the midst of a more dramatic upheaval, it can be difficult for the family because they feel like perhaps they don’t understand or they don’t know what’s happening.
And in a recent case, a couple split up, a married couple, and he said, “I want my wife back. “I don’t know, my wife’s not here anymore.” Because she’s in the midst of this process.
Conscious awareness is realizing itself through that body.
And all of those ideas of herself that perhaps had something to do with that relationship and were a part of the dynamics there are being resolved, being transcended.
So it’s a sensitive subject and it’s a case by case thing.
We couldn’t really–
D: ‘Cause some people, as I mentioned earlier, when they have the shift, not much on the outside changes right away. It’s more of a gradual process. One that others can adapt to more easily.
And some people have just like a (swipes) and it just shifts a whole bunch of things, especially if there’s a pulling back and detachment or things that used to be meaningful for them in a relationship vanish suddenly.
But yeah, it varies a lot too.
And also it’s kind of, again, about balance in certain kinds of ways. I’ve always had a, Like when I had my first initial shifts, (excuse me) I was single.
And it made that process a little simpler in certain ways.
But I did maintain an active social life. And so there was a culturing of how to be in the world ’cause there was a phase at one point where there was the sense of identity, the sense of a David ceased to exist, and I stopped using personal pronouns for about two weeks, because it didn’t mean anything. It was a bit weird, but you know, a few friends were joking about “the person formerly known as David”, but then I integrated more, and so it kind of… and that was, you know,
There’s still this expression here as a person, and it’s still very useful to be able to interact with other apparent persons and to be in the world. And so there’s kind of, there can be that need for stepping back and being a bit detached at certain points in the process, but it’s not useful to think that that’s the end point. just a part of the process and at a certain point we move past that and reintegrate and it’s healthy.
It’s healthy to do that. It’s healthy to be able to interact with other people. And indeed, you know, we talked about the shadows and stuff earlier, you know, relationships can be really valuable tools because they can serve as a mirror to our stuff. And it’s like there is consciousness showing me what hasn’t been seen yet.
A: Yes.
D: I’ll note too on the healing part we were talking about that if we have a good spiritual practice that takes us deep within that inherently will provide a lot of healing, just that deep rest and settledness allows the body to do a lot of its healing automatically. It’s more what we’re talking about here is more some of the larger things. Like we can, for example, go into a nice deep meditation and soften some nice bonds we have with something and then get up in an activity and habitually re-engage them again and reinforce them. And so there could be a kind of a back-and-forth where it’s not quite getting to it. And so these harder nuts, so to speak, can require more direct attention.
That’s been, that’s kind of the way I look at it. So we don’t have to go through everything we’ve ever experienced in every past life. And you know, a lot of that, well, yeah, a lot of that is actually roasted by awakening itself.
It’s one of the more interesting things, even though it’s just the first stage. It, uh, it, it generally roasts a good deal of our backlog and, uh…
A: Yeah.
D: It’s amazing what it can do. That first shift is so important.
A: Yes.
D: But there’s still, yeah, there’s still the sprouted seeds that are continuing to unfold in our life. And those are the things we have to deal with. And no matter how enlightened somebody is, you know, if you’re here in a human form and a human body, you came in with stuff. And so there’s gonna be some value of that unfolding, you know, essentially for the rest of your life.
So coming to terms with it and knowing how to deal with it in healthy and productive ways is really useful.
A: It is, yes. And it’s a very beautiful point you made about integration, because a lot of what I’m referring to in the family context has to do with these initial phases.
And I look at it, or I describe shifts unfolding in a five-phase developmental process, starting with a recognition, which does not necessarily denote a clear shift in identity, but a recognition of one’s reality beyond what one is currently taking oneself to be.
Transcendence would be a clear shift into this phase that has been recognized or this reality of yourself as being infinite on some–
D: [towards] Self-Realization, Cosmic Consciousness.
A: Qualitative presentation, yes. Stabilization in that contextual identification, then there’s unification and integration.
So a lot can go through the first three stages of this process. They get to the stabilization point of the developmental process, but the unification and the integration phases never really unfold fully. And so this is where you’ll see a lot of the talk surrounding, you know, sort of a high negation talk.
The world isn’t, there’s no world, there’s nothing going on. And there’s a lot of emphasis on that and those kinds of things. No person and more of an identification as being no person rather than an identification as being the Self or realizing that you’re the Self.
D: And even in that stabilization stage, there is a, if you haven’t cultured the physiology sufficiently with decent practices, there can be that place where there’s an opening and even the shift itself, but then a falling back into the mind because the ground hasn’t been prepared enough yet. So there can be a shift, but then it takes a while to kind of, to go through that process to clear out enough that it can be embodied properly and go forward.
A: Yes, yes. And I also wanna note that this developmental process is not something that we do, but it’s something that unfolds spontaneously in accordance with our willingness and understanding.
And that in the context of daily life, family life, if we have the patience, if you will, or if there is the patience, the gift of patience, to just be with the process and to allow, you know, to allow things to settle down and not to jump to conclusions when we’re in the initial phases, then it can be a lot easier.
So when we’re talking with family, and just sort of communicating to the best of our ability, that we’re in the midst of an unfoldment, of a transformation, of a spiritual nature, and that it’s very important to us, or whatever the languaging is.
And not necessarily make hasty decisions, or reckless decisions from that place, of initially moving into this recognition of ourself beyond everything that we had taken ourself to be previously.
D: Like the assumption that I’m supposed to become a teacher now. That’s a really bad.
(laughing)
Very few people, teaching is a skill. Very few people actually have that dharma.
A: Yes, yes, it is true. And that’s an interesting point because the teaching started unfolding here before the shift. So it was obviously, there was obviously something karmic in place. And the way I feel about teaching is, it’s not a choice. You don’t choose to be a teacher.
You can’t not be a teacher if that’s what your nature is.
D: Yeah. Whereas here, it’s shown up as writing primarily.
A: Yes, yes, exactly. And we’re all, anyone that’s in the midst of this process is a teacher, I consider, on some level, because there’s a modelling taking place in this field, and it’s modelling something to itself, and there’s an enlivening of the presence around those that are in close proximity to us, and all of those different factors.
D: But the majority of people that I know that are awake are just living their lives, like anybody else would. They’re not teaching or doing special support or anything like that particularly, they’re just living their lives.
A: It’s beautiful. Okay, so… I suppose one more point that I’ll make in reference to what you were saying about having a healthy spiritual practice, meditation practice, whatever it is that we’re called to, is that a lot… there are certain modalities that begin to characterize the experiencing, which can become very natural and effortless surrounding surfacing and healing.
For example, one is what I call transmutation, which is essentially just allowing attention to rest on energy as it arises in the body, or it reflects in the emotional body, without necessarily having to sit down and really look at it.
But the body’s still functioning, still at the grocery store, conversation’s still unfolding, but this energy’s being held attentively and allowed attentively.
And this can go on all day long, it can go on for days on end. Sometimes it goes in just a few minutes. Sometimes these big ones require a certain amount of attention.
D: Peeling an onion too sometimes, just layers.
A: Oh, of course. Yeah, the dimmer switch is getting turned up and the big ones are at the bottom. So we only get the, and some of them are piecemeal, you know, and you’ll feel like, oh, that one’s, you know, that one’s done.
And then something very similar allows for another portion to come up. But in the context of daily living, it doesn’t require some sort of withdrawal or an absence from experiencing.
As a matter of fact, the experiencing allows for these things to come up.
D: Right, exactly.
A: And to be approached in a way which is evolutionary in its nature.
D: Exactly, yeah. Living enlightenment is living enlightenment. Living it in the world. Not in a cave somewhere, but out there in the world.
A: Beautiful, beautiful.
So, well, I think that about covers it for today. I want to thank you again for taking the time.
D: Thank you, Andrew.
A: Just give all glory to pure Divinity.
D: All glory.
A: Thank you, brother.