Transcript: A Conversation with Andrew Hewson and Davidya Buckland on ParaBrahman Stage

Andrew: Peace and love, everyone. Welcome. My name is Andrew Hewson. I’m a spiritual teacher. I’m here with my friend, David “Davidya” Buckland. David is an author of, he’s authored the book Our Natural Potential. I believe he has another book on the way. Also, is the writer of a blog Davidya.ca where he explores enlightenment in the context of daily life and looks at how that relates to the fields of science and psychology.

David and I have been having conversations for about a year, recording talks together, and this particular conversation is the, maybe it’s the fourth, I believe, or the fifth of a mini-series or a sub-series of conversations that we’re having on the stages of enlightenment, what I refer to as contextual modalities and what David refers to as stages of enlightenment. So David’s model and my own are a little different and as we come together and explore the nuanced descriptions, it paints more of a comprehensive picture. Here we’re going to be speaking about the condition of pure Divinity or the reality of pure Divinity.

And I felt that it would be appropriate as we’re moving into this, David just to acknowledge the sacredness of such a conversation and really all the conversations that we’ve had, and to express to the viewers that what we’re describing is not a measuring system. It’s not a way to gauge any apparent progress for an individual. What we’re describing are actual conditions of reality, realized within itself, and they’re so precious and sacred. To take them on as a concept and a way of comparing really is out of alignment with the truth of what is being expressed.

So it’s an honor and a privilege to be able to share on this subject, and I’m grateful that you’re here with me, David.

David: Thank you, Andrew. You raise a very good point. In our last conversation on Brahman, we touched on the challenge of speaking about no-thingness, the non-thingness of Brahman. And I mentioned there that Brahman is kind of like the afterglow of pure Divinity, or Parabrahman, it’s also known. And, yes, it’s profoundly sacred. And, you know, for myself too, it’s something that’s still unfolding. So there is not a complete picture.

However, I was given some feedback, some understanding to see what the structure of it was so that the unfolding would make more sense. We’ve talked in earlier conversations about how there’s these two processes, parallel processes, that support the unfolding, the stages in consciousness, and the refinement, and the awakening heart, and the process of soma, those two kind of masculine and feminine sides of the process. Sometimes people will move through the process into Brahman without much refinement, enough to recognize what’s unfolding, but not the deeper values of the feminine side.

But when we get to this point, it’s absolutely necessary for that refinement to have taken place. Pure Divinity can’t be known without that refinement process taking place.

Sometimes I use the analogy of consciousness as a comparison. From our previous understanding, we understand that pure consciousness is the foundation of all form and experience. And in deep meditation and so forth, we come to recognize consciousness by itself, pure consciousness prior to expression, and then we wake up to that as the Self.

With pure Divinity, we’re waking up to Divinity without expression, Divinity in its core nature, the source of the source, what Lorn Hoff describes as pure holiness, even in non-self nothingness. And we find that the qualities that we recognize within Brahman, those values that become consciousness, alertness, liveliness, intelligence, turn out to be qualities of Divinity.

They’re kind of coming through Brahman and then expressing. Most people I know experience this pure Divinity in a feminine kind of way as a Divine Mother, as a profound feminine presence. I wouldn’t say that’s universal, necessarily, but everybody I know so far has related to it in that kind of way.

A: That’s an interesting point that you make, David, and I have some observations about that that could potentially be relevant. In this aspect of the unfoldment here, there came a certain point where that kind of that contextualization of it as either being masculine or feminine sort of came into the foreground and there seemed to be what appeared at first to be sort of a stuckness in a paradox or something that was yet to be seen clearly. And because of it being pure Divinity, it seemed that the possibility of it being an either/or just wasn’t there, but at the same time there was, as you describe, the prominence of this profound femininity, if you will, in an impersonal divine sense. And what sort of revealed itself was that this is the contextualization of pure Divinity within its own realization, within its own mind, in this way, in this more feminine way, is actually what is most appropriate for our time. So in the unfoldment of this planetary system and our current sort of collective status, this is the way that Divinity seems to be relating to itself. So that’s just my observation and it actually correlates with that which is most relevant for humanity. Yeah.

D: Yes, and there’s a great deal in the old texts that talk about this in a similar way. Another important detail to understand about pure Divinity is it’s not known in the way that we normally know things. The way we know consciousness, the way we know a pen, you know, the home we live in, and so forth, this is all known by a knower as an aspect of consciousness. Because Divinity is pure all-knowing, and there is no person or value of a individuality that’s used to know Divinity.

It’s Divinity itself that is learning. There’s no knowing itself from a point. And it’s interesting, it’s sort of the same kind of dichotomy as in Brahman as well, because nothing is experienced as being created, and yet everything we experience is that, is Divinity in appearance.

And that’s kind of the whole thing about the world as illusion, is it’s not illusory, how to say this, it’s illusory to think that the world itself is real in itself, but in its deeper nature, that’s the reality. There is a world, but it’s the deeper nature expressing itself within itself.

A: Yes, yeah, that’s a beautiful point. It’s the difference between seeing only the appearance or seeing the essence of the appearance and seeing what it is that is appearing. And that’s where we discover the actuality of the reality of that which is seen to be the world. And it’s really interesting that you brought up that point in reference to sort of the non-creation and the appearance. What I found is that in that stage or phase of nothingness, there was almost a clearing out that was taking place. And in the pure Divinity shift, it sort of revealed that from a teleological viewpoint, the function of that clearing out was to make room for the divinization of all of the layers of creation that previously were being held from a different value. So in the stages before, it had to do with conscious awareness, realizing itself, recognizing its own intelligence, the way in which its own light is appearing in form, so on and so forth. And then in the nothingness stage that again is recontextualized, so it’s seen to be on the basis of thatness, and we are that quality-less no-thingness, which then is, although nothing is ever created, is appearing as all of creation.

So in that, in the sort of recognition of the nothingness of creation, there is a sort of space or a room that’s being created, you might say, which then I found in the Pure Divinity shift, and at least in the initial stages of Pure Divinity, sort of fills up with the radiance of Divinity.

D: Yes. Yes, I agree. Here there was kind of a process where it started off by filling from below, like filling with white light, not a specific light, but just like liquid light flowing in. And it kind of came to a certain point and there was still some shadow values, some unresolved values in the physiology, but it’s not the local physiology. I’ll come back that in a bit, but it kind of reached a certain point and then it kind of went around that shadow area and that highlighted it. So it was unseen until that point, but it highlighted it and so it allowed me to go in and, you know, feel into it. And that process continues.

That’s one of the things I found is this process is far more exacting of of the purification process. Anything that remains unresolved is being highlighted in various ways,in various aspects of the life, to be seen and resolved so that Divinity can be lived. And so it kind of rose up to a certain point, and then it started descending in the same kind of way.

And what I found fascinating to observe was that the physiology, in the more cosmic sense of it, is all driven by the devata, the fine mechanics of creation, the laws of nature, the principles of functioning that create the expression, the doers.

And essentially this process was immersing them in Divinity and that triggered some of them to have a spiritual awakening through here and that triggered a massive amount of purification.

So basically there was this local awakening, so to speak, in a broader way and then that awakening of the devas falling back into the collective and that spreading out and triggering a massive amount of purification, which seems to be continuing to go on. It really kicked up.

So yeah, so it’s kind of, there is kind of, talk about physiology a little bit here too for perspective. When I talk about physiology, I’m not just talking about the physical body, but there’s those subtler bodies, our energy bodies, the mental body, the level of the intellect and intuition, the celestial or the bliss body, and then the field of, which is also the field of our, where our universe begins. And then beyond that field of creation that contains that sort of the cosmic space of consciousness being aware of itself and then consciousness itself.

Now within that field of creation there is what I refer to as the devata body. It’s essentially like a template and the body is composed entirely of the devata values, and because this is outside of manifest space and of time, they’re essentially managing the expression of all beings in all time simultaneously.

And then that is nested within the cosmic body, which is the body of all bodies, also known as Narayana and various first-born kind of concepts, ideas like that.

And that has a value of a Divine body, a body just composed of that Divinity. So we’re talking about the Divine flowing into the cosmic body, the devata body, and then progressively into the subtler bodies.

And I was shown that Pure Divinity, the Parabrahman stage, unfolds within stages itself. There’s kind of like a pattern. There’s the Cosmic Consciousness/ Self-Realization, God Consciousness, and Unity stages. Then there’s the Brahman, Refined Brahman and Parabrahman stages. And the pattern is somewhat similar in certain ways.

Unity has stages in the same way. Parabrahman has distinct stages, and they correspond to those layers of expression and to the structure and physiology, such as the chakras and the koshas and so on. So there’s kind of correspondence between these sub-stages and the layers of becoming, and the Divinity moving in, essentially, into those layers.

But there’s a lot of of purification to go on before that can be fully embodied. So this has been gradually unfolding here in progressive stages. It was interesting because I was finishing my first book, Our Natural Potential, talking about these seven stages of enlightenment, and I had almost nothing to say about pure Divinity or Parabrahman stage because I had just been tasting it. It hadn’t unfolded yet. And it became clear that there were seven stages and I had to refine it slightly a little bit later. I made a small error in that but it has been unfolding corresponding to that, and essentially it also relates to seven fundamental qualities of Divinity and how those are embodied by the chakras and by the koshas and by consciousness and so on.

So it’s an interesting process to see, and of course there’s going to be a huge variation in how this unfolds in any given physiology.

A: Yeah, that’s a great point, the variation. Just for the viewers, it’s important to recognize degrees of refined perception and different variations of refined perception, which we’ve talked about in some of our previous talks.

You know, it’s even in a true pure Divinity shift, it’s not always going to be the processes that you’re describing, in reference to the physiology and the body are not always going to be so descriptively clear. So the same basic unfoldment is happening, but there may be more or less awareness of the details of that in the way that you’re describing it in reference to the movement from the divine body through the cosmic body and so on and so forth.

D: Yeah, that’s very true.

A: And in reference also to the to the awakening laws of nature, I would say that there can be cases where laws of nature are awakening in the physiology, but perhaps in that case there isn’t an awareness that that is what is specifically going on.

D: I have a very strong analytical aspect that goes into the detail.

A: Oh you and I both, yeah I appreciate that.

D: And also the refinement process here has been going on since the 70s basically so yeah it’s been this progressive and so the details have been unfolding. But it’s one of those attention things, it unfolded where I’ve had the attention, where I’ve had the interest. Yes.

You know our friend Dorothy Rowe, for example, has had her attention much more on healing and the more expressed koshas that support our body mind and how she can help in those areas where it’s much less detail here in that sense.

A: Yeah, that’s a really beautiful point. And it’s kind of goes back to that point that you’ve made before about how each of us sort of has a specialty in a certain sense. So there’s an expertise that tends to develop according to the flow of attention and what sort of what is revealed in the unfoldment through the appearance of a given physiology.

One thing that I will just sort of look at here is a couple of different ways that I’ve noticed that the pure Divinity shift can unfold.

One of them starts more on the manifest value, in the manifest value of conscious awareness, sort of coming back online from nothingness almost in a thickening fullness. So in that no thingness, what begins to take place is there’s this thick full presence that begins to re-reveal itself, but it’s in a new way. And this is actually the radiance or the light of pure Divinity. And in that, the radiance has the possibility of then tracing itself back, or sort of, how would I say, milking itself down to the source value of its truth, and that’s where that infinite supreme power is shining as that thick fullness. So that’s one way, and that starts with the manifest going back to the unmanifest.

The other way is starting with the manifest, sort of the sacredness and the holiness and the infinite love and grace starts to sort of shimmer forth out of the nothingness. And then it’s filling up and then starts to sort of pour down as the re-revealing of the Self as the radiance of Divinity. Yeah.

D: Beautiful.

A: So those are just two, you know, just two possibilities there. And of course, I’m sure there’s lots of variation in those. But there’s also something that I call the field-field contrast, or the field-point contrast. And I see the stages sort of having these contrast points arising, particularly in the freshness of a shift, where there’s a new point of reference for our identity, for our reality, and you know what that new point of reference sort of has been revealed out of, or what we sort of have shifted out of into that. So there’s this a sense of layering and a contrast in the layering.

Now this can be referential to field-field in the sense of manifest light and unmanifest source, but it can also be referential to field-point or it can be field-field- point. Yeah, I know what this may sound like but it is true. Don’t try to understand it just you know, if you do, then you see it.

And then what takes place as there is a unification and that purification begins to come online, David that you were talking about is that the contrast also begins to resolve. So there’s less of a field-field contrast, less of a field point contrast and The, a seamlessness begins to prevail in the condition.

D: Some people actually can think that they’re losing it a little bit. Yeah, because the contrast phase

A: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

D: I’ve actually found it’s surprising how fast the contrast goes away and it becomes normal. Especially when you’ve actually been through the Unity process where there’s a whole series of sub shifts. You get used to your reality shifting

A: Yeah Yeah, that’s a great point because in early pure Divinity It’s kind of like you can check in you know to see if it’s you know, see if it’s still there, you’re still there, and at a certain point that kind of dissipates and because the contrast of checking in is, it’s always sort of in the, it becomes more in the foreground. Yeah. So it kind of shifts from background to foreground and even the whole background foreground seeming split, which it’s not really a substantial split, but you know what I mean, also is resolved as that process of the deepening, embodying of the physiology begins to unfold.

So all of this directly relates to that deep purification that begins to shine forth with the radiance revealing itself to itself.

D: Like the ultimate solvent, it dissolves everything.

A: Yeah, I mean, it’s so amazing how we can feel pretty well resolved in nothingness, you know, because just of the qualitative value of nothingness, it’s easier to feel much more resolved. There’s nothing.

And then in the pure Divinity shift, we are sometimes in for a big surprise. The lights get really turned on, you know, it’s like, “Boing!” Oh, there’s a few little pieces here and there that I wasn’t… Not only that, it also invites layers of collective material into its power, into its presence. So we become sort of vehicles for levels of collective resolution that correlate with our own sort of individual experiences, if you will.

D: Yeah, and things we resonate with.

A: Yes, exactly. Very, very, very true. Beautiful.

Oh, yeah, I was going to mention there’s a concept I have of divine displacement, which I find to be useful. And that’s as the radiance and the brilliance and the shimmering, glimmeringness of Divinity becomes more and more prominent and prevalent as a dimmer switch that doesn’t stop. It’s like a dimmer switch that keeps, you can turn it around infinitely. Then there’s a displacement of layers of unresolved residue and unresolved material. So it’s actually like sticking your hand in a full glass of water, or even a glass of water that isn’t full, whatever, that the light is displacing the remnants of that which is based in the illusion of darkness, the appearance of darkness.

D: Yeah, I think it’s important here to mention too, because people naturally will compare to their own experience.

We’re talking about this whiteness of pure Divinity moving into the physiology. We’re not talking about energy. We’re not talking about even, you know, Shakti, although the higher, I mean, the higher values of the expressions of pure Divinity could be described as Shakti with a capital S. We’re not talking about Kundalini or we’re not talking about Soma. Soma has a white quality as well. It’s an expression of Divinity, so it has some features of that. But these are values of expression. And certainly some of those…

A: Not celestial either. We’re not talking about a celestial value.

D: Exactly. Celestial kind of has a golden thing. It’s transcendent to all of that. And even to say that it’s white is kind of a little misleading. It just blares out everything. It’s so bright, you know, and it’s everything. So, you know, the quality of manifest light is, you know, white light is all light together. And it’s kind of like that in a sense, but it’s more than all that. And so we might compare it to that in a sense, and there’s kind of the as above, so below. And so when you’re describing pure Divinity it sounds a lot like some aspects of God Consciousness and some aspects of Unity in there, and that’s certainly the case because there are those high qualities that are reflective, reflective that you go through you know into more manifest levels of expression but pure Divinity is so much more and you don’t want to underestimate it.

A: Yes, yeah, that’s exactly right. It’s the non-relative radiance of the one infinite reality that becomes so obvious that it is the infinite reality.

D: Yeah, it’s interesting. It’s probably worth talking about God a little bit here because there’s kind of three primary ways, you could say, of knowing… well, maybe four, I guess you could even say, of knowing laws of nature, the primary qualities of Divinity or laws of nature. One of them is just as a quality, simply as that, a value of being or love.

But there’s also the personal value where you experience a form value. So this is some, you know, form like Krishna or Jesus or whatever you relate to, or laws of nature can express in a direct, experienceable form.

And that’s kind of the Purusha value or the Mahadeva, where it’s a subtle form. They’re embodied, but they don’t have detail. It’s kind of like an outline. But is definitely a quality and it has a form to some degree.

And then there is in its pure quality, pure principle, not as a law of nature but just as a pure quality.

So for example, you know, Shiva embodies alertness, the observer aspect of consciousness, that quality of Divinity can be experienced in a Mahadeva form and can be experienced as a being. Or just more impersonally, as alertness.

And similarly, Krishna has a quality of love and sustaining, which relates to dharma, flow, a kind of quality of divine discrimination. And anyways, it’s interesting too, Krishna is an interesting one because Krishna means black.

A: It’s dark, yeah.

D: Yeah, dark or black. Yeah. And when that value, the divine value of that started to unfold here, the apparent unconscious background of everything that had been experienced came alive. I realized it embodied Krishna.

A: Yeah.

D: Emptiness became fullness, in that sense, even in the fullness, there was qualities of what wasn’t conscious or was empty. Those aspects were Krishna.

A: Yes. Yeah, that’s a beautiful point. That’s sort of a recognizable stage
in the pure Divinity unfoldment. And because it sort of references the no thingness in a new way. To have an awareness of that, the possibility of that unfolding is helpful because it could seem like, potentially at first, that it’s sort of a backtracking, but it isn’t. It’s just a re-revelation of what has already been tasted to some degree, but in a new context, in the context of pure Divinity. And that, you know, then that supreme dark lord reveals, Well, you are that on the level of the no thingness, but it’s as you described that the pure Divinity of it, the aliveness of it, all of those different qualities sort of come online and are revealed. And that’s what we could call the supreme masculine value from a certain perspective.

D: Yes, exactly. There’s a saying that Shiva is dead without Shakti, or inert, depending on how you want to translate that.

It’s also interesting to reflect on the literature that’s available in the traditional literature. A lot of the texts talk about Self-Realization and Unity and the shift into Brahman. But not so much about Brahman itself.

Again, it’s how do you describe nothing. But a lot of that stuff about higher stages tends to be quite dry. Like the Brahma Sutra basically lists a series of intellectual recognitions or recognitions by the intellect, “Oh yes, I am that also, I am that also,” and kind of, aggregate it describes coming together. And it’s really very dry, and it’s been confused often as a bunch of concepts, a list of concepts. But pure Divinity can’t be described in that kind of way. It’s a, it would be meaningless too. And so what you find is texts that are more devotional, and essentially they’re just long lists of qualities of Divinity, or names of Divinity that imply qualities, and they’re in song.

There’s a famous sage, Shankara, who is the founder of what we now refer to as non-duality. And the early part of his teaching were quite dry, and he was famous for beating other spiritual leaders in debates, because he had a very sharp intellect, even at a young age. He died at something like 33 years old or something. But there’s a later stage where he wrote devotional material that’s not as recognized.

And there’s a story that he was walking along a river and his foot got stuck. He couldn’t get his foot out. And he sees a washerwoman going over a nearby bridge and calls out to her for help. And she says to him something to the effect of, “Oh, it’s all just illusion. It doesn’t matter.” And he realizes that she’s Divine Mother and then writes this beautiful poem, a poem describing her qualities. So there’s a shift, so there’s that shift into his later teachings, the higher values, but that’s largely been unrecognized in recent times.

A: Yeah. Yeah it is, it is coming online now. It’s really beautiful that you brought up devotion because it’s been a very sort of intricate part of the unfoldment here from the beginning and this directly relates to this sort of contextualization of pure Divinity in the feminine value. I described a different style of unfoldment that started with the refined value from your description throughout our talks and the sort of fullness, the conscious presence, the vibrancy coming online first and the field realizing itself through the sort of dynamic form value and the fullness value first, and then clicking in to the silent, changeless, seeing value after. And that continuing to sort of have some dominance throughout the process.

And I’m seeing that, I’m seeing that unfold and all around every week, that sort of shows up in a new way.

D: That does speak to the development of collective consciousness, that that’s possible even.

A: It does. Yeah, it does.

D: When the world is all, you know, plugged up and sludgy, it’s not a way you’re gonna wake up, basically. Whereas if that’s softening, then that becomes more of a vehicle. I mean, of course, there’s always going to be interesting exceptions, but as a whole, on a more typical level, that’s fascinating to see that.

A: Yeah, it is, it is. It’s such a blessing to be able to observe it as well, sort of how it starts to develop in its infancy, and then it blossoms forth. And one of the sort of aspects of that is that sort of a resonance with a devotion sort of a natural flowering of devotion that directly relates to the radiance of pure Divinity because that feminine aspect that’s recognized in the Self actually is the enlivening intelligence, the enlivening power of pure Divinity. And it’s not really clear until the pure Divinity shifts unfolds. But what does become very clear is that actually it has been the grace of Divinity the whole way. It has been guiding and unfolding the process.

D: It’s like here I was talking a lot about the mechanics of consciousness and there was observer and the observed and the process of experience and then becoming aware that that consciousness itself had a source and arose from the qualities of alertness and liveliness blending together to create conscious awareness that then becomes self-aware and all this. And only then did I become aware that there was this third quality of intelligence that was in there. That alertness, or that liveness didn’t just agitate alertness, it actually stirred it awake and it took a direction. And there’s that, you know, but that devata value is the most subtle of the three in consciousness because that’s where the intelligence expresses and that’s where the world comes out of, and it’s that intelligence quality that’s key to the whole thing. I mean without that it’s just you know noise, chaos yeah and that that is you know the highest value in the sense of, of course this is speaking from the intellect.

A: Sure we are yeah but is also something underlying, you know, underlying the expression intellectually.

D: Yeah, a pure devotion has been less of a process, in here, but there’s been stages of that, like through the God Consciousness stage, with a heart opening and a very profound devotional period, and other points as well.

A: Yeah, it shows up differently for everyone, and I think what I was the sort of point that I was coming to is that in the presence of pure Divinity that sort of is inescapable you know some level of devotion, some level of just the sense of the majesty, the majesty, the excellent, the majestic excellence, and supremacy wow oh my gosh

D: Yeah, sometimes people have these doubts about whether or not light will overcome, but it’s just, there’s a, I mean, there’s a need for darkness to hold form, to allow form to exist, to allow experiences to unfold, to allow us to learn and bring out the detail of it. But we’ve been coming out of a darker age where we got a little lost in that.

A: Yes.

D: The light got a little bit low and now we’re bringing it back up again and restoring the balance and what we’re talking about now will become much more common.

A: Yes, yes it will and it is and that’s also a great point in reference to the age. You know in coming out of the denser, darker age, there’s a tendency to contextualize things in reference to the masculine. And so, you know, even in conditions of pure Divinity, oftentimes it can be sort of masculinely contextualized. That’s the way that it is described or related to. And as the light becomes more prominent collectively, then there’s an uncovering and a revealing of a different possibility and that kind of goes back to what I was saying in the beginning about how this Divinity holding itself in the feminine value is most supportive for our time and is most in alignment with where we are collectively.

D: But it also points to the really major value of healing. Wow. Because that refinement and awakening heart isn’t going to happen unless we unload a good hunk of it anyways. We’re still going to have some to work through. But if we’re going to be invested in resisting and holding on to our past and our regrets or whatever like that, that’s just not a, doesn’t create a space where those refined values can unfold.

A: Exactly. Or even running away and trying to escape, you know, a lot of folks look at non-duality as an escape route. It’s like, how do I get out of being accountable for things? Non-duality, right? That’s the most popular.

D: Let’s practice.

A: Right. So.

D: Our life, yeah, it gets carried away.

A: And it’s so, you know, and whenever that does unfold, it’s purely, I mean, you know, it’s intellectual, you know, a lot of it’s so intellectual and non-experiential. And what we find is, go ahead.

D: A friend of mine calls it the non-duality man-scape.

A: Yeah, that’s very appropriate. And what’s really wild about it is that it’s just blindness, leading blindness and getting and going deeper into blindness, you know, oftentimes, but what we discover with maturity and through grace is that it’s through facing and allowing and going into and holding and receiving all of those things that we’ve been pushing away and trying to get out of and escape or say that we that we didn’t have or didn’t do or whatever, you know, all of those impressions.

It’s through just becoming the field of pure allowing, pure receiving, that just welcomes those into the possibility of resolution. And that definitely correlates with, and is inseparable from, a pure Divinity unfoldment or pure Divinity shift. And the feminine aspect of our reality being clear and prominent.

D: Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

A: So I thought it would be nice maybe if you and I, if we both kind of described the, how this whole play of form is appearing from pure Divinity. Just a quick… Appearing to, right, and then not. Yeah, so maybe just like a quick sort of run through of the basic, you know, the basic outline of that maybe, and because we have different perspectives and then as those come together it could, it’s always nice.

D: Yeah, do you want to start?

A: Sure, I’ll start. Yeah, so pure Divinity is the only reality, all right. This pure Divinity in a whim to know itself, in a whim, a musing to know itself, appears infinitely absent to itself. Now this is like a withdrawal or a flash of supreme nothingness and within this supreme no thingness is this potential that is based in structure, in the possibility of holding and providing the canvas, and in this infinite no thingness, this infinite quality-less primary appearance is what I call it. The primary appearance is no-thing. There’s also awareness, but it’s not awareness, it’s inactive awareness. It’s inert awareness. It’s awareness that isn’t self-aware. So then I’m describing it sequentially, but it’s not, it’s instantaneous, simultaneous if you will. Pure Divinity activates that infinite no-thingness and the inactively inert awareness that’s present there. And that activation is what I refer to as the primary distinction.

So it’s almost like a drum. If you look at the structure of a drum, it’s hollow. And then there’s a skin stretched on top of it. Yeah. And in order for there to be sound, the skin is struck. So we can look at Brahman nothingness almost as the structure of the drum, and there’s an inert sort of awareness stretched over the top of it, just bear with me, and it’s struck by pure Divinity as a part of the musing.

And this is the primary vibration, the primary distinction, the primary tension, It’s also known as the Pranava mantra. And this primary vibration reverberates and collapses into an infinite number of it reaches an infinite number of threshold points which are pranavic points which basically collapse into replicas of this same primary process. So each point represents then a new Pranavic reverberation, and in these points, what we then see is the primary sound begin to take on an infinite number of vibratory distinctions which show up as multiverse structures. So an infinite number of multiverse structures arises simultaneously and within each multiverse structure there’s a unique conglomeration or patterning of the sound in what we call the laws of nature or that show up as the laws of nature for each structuring multiplicity.

And in this multiverse structure we see the emergence of this universe, in this universe, oh also that primary distinction or that striking of the the drum, that striking of the cymbal, and that primary vibration also shows up as a centralization principle known as Egoity. So those points, those Pranavic points are guided by this centralization principle of Egoity. And that centralization principle then translates into the structuring of the multiverse structure that arises within that unique vibratory patterning of the primary vibration. And so that centralization principle guides the expression of the universes, and then within the universes, galaxies, planetary systems, and then the centralization principle shows up on a given planetary system known as Earth as the guiding intelligence for the formation, the patterning of life and there’s a lot more to it. I’m skipping a lot of different things which you’re you, all right

D: literally

A: so and then that shows up as the appearance of two bodies speaking right now. So the the primary distinction is also that intelligence of self-experiencing so that is where awareness is self-aware, self-conscious, and that self-experiencing is what collapses into all of these infinite vibratory points of emergence, which then show up as multiverse structures and so on and so forth.

D: Beautiful. Yeah, that’s interesting. I realize I don’t think I’ve ever tried to say it all at once, I get the dissertation in the spring, that’s what I’m working on for the second book, which I haven’t actually been working on lately much.

A: My disclaimer is a lot of details are left out.

D: Oh yeah, it’s pretty hard to describe the whole thing. So yeah, I guess the perspective I have is that pure Divinity is the source of the source, essentially she has these primary qualities and those qualities, well, interact it’s not quite the right word because it’s not like something happens or whatever, but they’re there, and so that quality of alertness as i mentioned before is stirred by the liveliness becomes conscious.

So the Brahman knows itself, it’s alert to itself, but it’s not consciousness. And then it takes another stage, more expressed, and consciousness becomes more expressed and becomes self-aware. You get this kind of subtle space of consciousness aware of itself. And then within that, it kind of like there’s nested values. And so there’s consciousness aware of itself globally and at every point within itself.

And those points express forward as what we call souls and beings who are then experiencers of this expression. And it’s kind of like, there’s this kind of like divine mind, and as you mentioned Divinity has kind of like a thought, you might call it, not as expressed as how we would experience a thought but just like an idea, a meme, some idea and it kind of creates this memory impression, smriti they call it in in Sanskrit, and from the perspective here at the moment, that self-aware consciousness experiences that idea or whatever and then tries to express it. It’s trying to become that and so it tries to mimic or imitate it, kind of thing. And so it creates this expression which we experience as the appearance of the world, as an attempt to express Divinity.

You know, the expression here, Divinity is all-knowing already, but consciousness is not, and so consciousness is working to know itself. It knows itself globally, but it doesn’t know itself in all the details. And so it expresses those point values and each of which has a different expression. And so each of us has a function in consciousness to know itself more fully and more, not imitate, but emulate Divinity. Yes. To be higher and higher values of that.

And then there’s a progressive series of expressions of that where that space of consciousness, there’s a nested value of that space within a space, where the space actually becomes what we would call manifest space, and the universe is expressed. And there’s a kind of a, and that’s the pranava as you describe, and there’s this kind of, there’s the devata values where they kind of, it’s like the vibrations are spoken. And they work in a group and self-interact and use the different sounds. Sanskrit’s kind of the language that’s closest, but the Devata use the sounds simultaneously, which we’re not capable of doing. And so simultaneously, and those interactions create a subtle geometry, a subtle structure, and then the sounds modulate the field value as it gets more expressed into air and so on. And so that becomes a mind field and then energy fields and then physical form as it gets progressively more dense and solidified.

And some things aren’t expressed all the way. They’re just only celestial objects or they’re only mental objects like thoughts. And some things express all the way into the physical form.

And then there’s a quality of what’s known as dharma, that which sustains, that’s required. Because all this happens in a moment and in an instant. And so for it to be sustained over time and for experiences to unfold, there’s this quality of sustaining that’s required to keep it going so we can have some stability in which to experience and learn and so on.

I don’t know, I guess that’s kind of my nutshell version.

A: Yeah, that’s beautiful. Yeah, thank you so much for filling in the details. Yeah, that’s beautiful. That’s interesting you mentioned dharma. Dorothy Rowe and I just recorded a talk not too long ago, it’s not available yet, on dharma. And I think we sort of explored how dharma, you know, dharma reflects an alignment with Divinity, you know, to varying degrees. So the more aligned we are with that, with the sort of ideal possibility within the unfoldment of that thought or that musing, then our, the more clearly our dharma is being expressed, or the dharma, sort of the universal dharma, if you will. We talked about all the different levels of dharma, there’s a lot, but, and when it kind of relates, well, listening to your description, sort of brings to mind this reflection on the understanding of the sort of male, female, masculine, feminine presentation that’s represented in this universe and in this planetary system.

And it also is how Divinity relates to itself according to a given context or environment. So on this planetary system, there’s a distinct representation of the male and female values. And these seen are seen to sort of represent certain qualitative presentations. Yeah. And so, as you described, it’s all instantaneous, simultaneous, already all there. At the same time, it’s never happened. But in that all already there, there’s this possibility, it’s not that we’re looking at something as starting here and then coming here. The way that we describe it, it sounds like that because we start at this point and then we kind of describe it sequentially to what seems to be something that is, but it’s not in time.

And the end is at the beginning and the beginning is non-different from the end, yeah, or whatever you want to call it. It’s not really an end, but you understand what I’m saying. So this, you know, when it comes to like, you know, Supreme Mother, Supreme Father, masculine, feminine, the different archetypal sort of personified values of Divinity, which are recognizable in form, as an experiential reality, all of that relates to the blossoming of the flower in the mind of God in this planetary system and in this universe.

Divinity is able to look back on itself and to see itself from this particular viewpoint which holds the masculine feminine values. And so when we speak about the divine mother or the divine father or the divine daughter, the divine son, it’s this beautiful opportunity that’s really unique to a given planetary system. Not saying this is the only planetary system where that is present, but that our planetary system has this unique possibility for Divinity to Realize and reflect and hold itself in the in this way.

So that just for whatever it’s worth.

D: Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, I don’t know if I want to go into that Because that gets into a whole other bunch of exploring and to put it in context.

But yeah, yeah, it’s fascinating that the variety and the extent of the possibilities that are expressed in creation, it’s just astonishing. And as you get, you know, subtler and subtler, the variety is more and more expressed.

I remember what comes to mind is the Bhagavad Gita, Song of God, chapter 11. Arjuna is asking Krishna to show him his true form. And Krishna’s, “Oh, I don’t know, is this a little bit much?” And so finally he does. And Arjuna is completely overwhelmed because of this vastness of, it’s like everything all at once, and all forms, all beings, and yeah. Oh yeah, it’s incredible. And yet, Divinity is more than that too.

A: Yes.

D: Yeah, one of the interesting things to relate to what we were talking about a few minutes ago is this quality of time. Because time isn’t there at the beginning. It’s just, like you said, we’ve been talking about it like it’s a process. Where it’s just instant.

But there’s this value of the process of experience. where it’s differentiating these different values. And so there’s this experience of time and our experience of time relates to our relationship with the process of experience. As we shift it, we experience time differently.

We’ve all had, you know, time seems to be dragged and other times time seems to go flying by.

A: Yeah.

D: And that’s ’cause our relationship has changed. I think at some point I listed about eight different ways we can experience time. It’s like as past and the future, as an eternal now, as past and future in the present moment, as eternity, as no time, timelessness, whatever, and so forth. All in that relationship. And the reason why we experience the world the way we do, through this apparent step, step, step, step of experience, of kind of unfolding it all out, is so that we can go through this process of experience and bring out the details. Because otherwise, it all happens at once and the details are just kind of lost in that.

Sometimes people are in a big rush, they’re woken up and now they want to go to the next stage. It’s like a race. But it’s not actually really what you want, because you want each stage to have time to unfold and integrate and mature so that you can get the full value.

A: Yes, yeah, that’s a great point and that kind of also reveals that there’s this idea of a finish line perhaps somewhere sort of nestled in there. Like yeah, then I’ll be, you know, whatever. But it’s really not like that and I think that one of the most revealing things about pure Divinity is how much deeper there is to sort of…

D: Yeah, that’s an important note. These stages of enlightenment, they’re not a goal. They’re how we live life. They’re what we live life from. Like being a teen or being an adult is not a life goal. It’s the vehicle from which we live life.

And so it’s a better place to be living life from. So they’re worthwhile to work on, to try and culture. But they’re not a goal in themselves. What do you do with that?

A: Sometimes it doesn’t come in so handy, right? Like, uh, hold on a sec. Let me, where are we again?

D: If you actually start talking about your life in a sort of normal social context, people are kind of like, whaaat? I dumb it down to be normal. Yeah, yeah. It’s part of normal anyways.

A: Yeah, yeah, so true. And it’s one of the ways I like to look at it is a qualitative, qualitative distinction. It’s a qualitative shift in the way that life is recognized. So it’s not about quantity because quantitatively it’s infinite. Yeah. It’s a qualitative differentiation comparatively, which may or may not be sort of prominently recognized.

D: Yeah, and if you read some of the old texts, like the Yoga Sutra, for example, or whatever, in the third and fourth books there, that they list abilities and consequences, kind of some of these kinds of things. And it’s very clear that, I mean, I don’t know if there’s anybody living that fully at this time. And so the Awakening process gives you a platform for that to unfold on, but there is so much more that’s possible, that humans are capable of, and that we can unfold into that, you know, we’re just beginning. I mean, I still feel like I’m in kindergarten again on a regular basis. It’s like some new value unfolds, and it’s like, oh okay, it puts everything in a new context and it’s like, okay what’s still true, and what’s what is the time to throw off, yeah yeah so i don’t know i mean my perspective we that i described of how things become i’m sure that’ll evolve again too, sure, it’s evolved over the years.

A: yeah same here, totally open, and that’s one of them i mean you know when we have that willingness to become, to be made like a child, over and over and over again. Yeah.

There’s no end to the possibilities of, of death. And so it is beautiful. I, there’s a certain prayer that came when a friend was in the moving, transitioning from nothingness into pure Divinity. We were working closely together and just sort of supporting that. And I call it the Immeasurable Prayer. And it’s not a common, not within the context of your common understanding of prayer, but I thought maybe I would say it. It’s just a short little, it goes like this.

I is the essence of the essence.
I is the root of the root.
Far from being something or nothing, I timelessly shines.
I is immeasurable power.
I is immeasurable love.
Far from beginning or ending, I timelessly shines.
I is all and all is I.
I is and I am none other than pure Divinity.

I think I messed up in that but you can find the written copy on the website, my website. But I just want to thank you, David, for the opportunity to go over these stages in detail for the glory of Divinity. And for the sake of truth, because that’s what this is all about, is the glory of Divinity. It’s not about any particular so-called personality or anything like that. So, thank you. Thank you so much.

And for our viewers, I was thinking that maybe our next talk, we could explore the healing process and the intelligence of allowing and how that kind of shows up throughout the stages. Does that sound good to you?

D: Yes, that sounds like a great idea.

A: All right, perfect. That’ll give some everyone something to look forward to. So, Thank you again David. Thank you. All glory to pure Divinity.

D: All glory.

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